Will Windows Phone continue to avoid to make a File Manager?

[jfa1]

Indeed me too. I don't care one way or another for a file manager. I suspect that Microsoft will not continue to avoid making a file manager app for windows phone!

 

[a5cent]

I was going to say something but I really don't care.

For once we agree... it would be nice if people cared to understand what they were talking about.

Edit: not saying you need to live with anything crippled nor need to like it. I don't like it either...

 

[N_LaRUE]

For once we agree... it would be nice if people cared to understand what they were talking about.

It's hard to do that when there's no information out there to understand your point. I've looked and found nothing but wringing of hands from so called 'security experts' who seemed more concerned about selling their solutions than the actual facts. Give me something to read and learn then we can discuss. Having an attitude of superiority offers nothing in return.

 

[prateek bahl]

all this discussion about security seems to be so vague. What security are we talking about when i dont have access to keep my own files safe. What if u have certain video or maybe pics which you want to stay hidden in some particular folder and only u can access them, rather then them getting popped up as soon as you open the gallery app. Whats secure?
Anyone who uses your cell for 5 minutes to access all your personal data or the freedom to decide where to keep your data and how to manage it?

 

[prateek bahl]

if we are so hell bent on proving that having a file manager is the ultimate threat to security, then all those people who keep any important data on their PC should stop doing it right-away. Because in PC we not only get access to personal data but we can also access system files. i am pretty sure most of the people here will have much more important info, like their bank account details and passwords, on their computers than on their phones. So keeping the computer secure is way more important. So what is your next suggestion then? On computers also we should restrict access to our own data on name of security?
The solution can never be to restrict access, if i buy a product i should have every right to access whatever is present on that device. I am paying for a product, no OS maker should be telling me what i can access and what i cant on my own device. Its my data, its my choice how to keep it. Its the job of the OS developer to ensure that i get that access in a secure manner. If he cant do that, then its a flaw from the very beginning of the development of the OS.

 

[prateek bahl]

and as per the trend being followed on this forum, now someone is gonna come and ask me to go for android instead of WP8 if i want complete access.
Till 3 hours back i had almost decided that i am buying lumia 920 today. I really liked the tiles UI of WP8 and the look and feel of lumia 920 along with its screen and camera. But thankfully i got hold of this forum and got to know about the lack of such a basic functionality in WP8.
Now i am stuck with no other option other than android, even though i neither like the feel of its UI, nor i wanted to go away from Nokia after having E7 and then 701 for a long time.

 

[anon(5335877)]

The solution can never be to restrict access, if i buy a product i should have every right to access whatever is present on that device.

Great! Hope you're okay with everyone else accessing your data too, because restricting access is bad!

I am paying for a product, no OS maker should be telling me what i can access and what i cant on my own device. Its my data, its my choice how to keep it. Its the job of the OS developer to ensure that i get that access in a secure manner. If he cant do that, then its a flaw from the very beginning of the development of the OS.

That's what a5cent has been trying to explain to people. There can be a way to access the data you need to access securely without the "file manager" people are asking for.

 

[prateek bahl]

Great! Hope you're okay with everyone else accessing your data too, because restricting access is bad!



That's what a5cent has been trying to explain to people. There can be a way to access the data you need to access securely without the "file manager" people are asking for.

there is a difference between providing access to the end user and granting access to malware to automatically access your files. You access files on your computer, does that mean that entire world is getting access to your files. I am not saying restricting access is bad, all i am saying is that it should be smart restriction, restricting you access to your own files on the name of security is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. The security thing is a simple excuse to hide the shortcomings of the developers of not being able to make a smart enough framework which can differentiate between genuine access and fraudulent access of files.

 

[anon(5335877)]

there is a difference between providing access to the end user and granting access to malware to automatically access your files. You access files on your computer, does that mean that entire world is getting access to your files. I am not saying restricting access is bad, all i am saying is that it should be smart restriction, restricting you access to your own files on the name of security is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. The security thing is a simple excuse to hide the shortcomings of the developers of not being able to make a smart enough framework which can differentiate between genuine access and fraudulent access of files.

It's absurd until something bad happens--then people of course will blame Microsoft for that too.

Okay, yes, you can access your files on your computer without everyone else accessing it, but I would say there are things that prevent that from happening like your firewall, your anti-virus, user account control, and access control lists. But is that what you want in Windows Phone? Having an anti-virus to protect your phone from malware? Having to grant administrator privileges to individual apps?

And plus, just because Windows and Android have file managers yet people haven't been able to access your files or wreak havoc on your system doesn't mean it's very secure. Why do you think you need a firewall or antivirus? Why does UAC prompt you every time an application wants administrator privileges? Why does Windows get so many security updates? Android also gets security updates too. Why did Google have to introduce Bouncer to their Google Play Store (yet malware is still finding its way into the store)?

Look, I know you want access to your files and do many things with them. I understand that a file manager is probably what you've used in the past, is what you're used to, and is how other OSes handle it, but that doesn't mean it's the best solution for WP. According to a5cent, the file manager you guys are asking for would undermine the security model of Windows Phone. (a5cent, please correct me if I'm wrong or clarify if I misunderstood your previous posts.)

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to access your files--that's not what we're saying. We're just saying that the file manager isn't the best way to do this and that there are alternative ways to solve this problem without compromising security. This is just something you'll have to just trust us, and more importantly, trust Microsoft on. You may not agree with their decisions, but there's a reason those people work at Microsoft, and the rest of you guys aren't. They know what they're doing, even though it may seem like they're being stupid and stubborn by not giving us a file manager. There are reasons behind their decisions even if they don't tell us. Remember, just because they don't create a file manager doesn't mean Microsoft can't come up with a better way to allow access to your files without compromising security.

I know this probably isn't really the answer most of you are looking for and that you want more details or more examples, but I'm afraid I can't help you there even though I'd love to. I just don't have a background in computer science. Even if I did, the answer probably wouldn't be simple. Sometimes, it's hard to simplify things that can be quite complex. Also, sometimes it's hard to explain things if the other person doesn't have a basic understanding or background of whatever subject I'm explaining.

I can give you a different, but related example about cars though that hopefully will help.

Let's say you had a compact front wheel drive car. Currently, it can complete a lap around a certain track in say 3 minutes and 18 seconds. Now I tell you, go make go around faster. How would you do that? Well, most people without a basic understanding of cars might say something Jeremy Clarkson (if any of you watch Top Gear UK) would say, "POWERRR!!!! It needs a bigger engine!" But see, it isn't as simple as that. Trying to fit a larger engine may cause some problems that normal people wouldn't know about because they don't have a background in cars. One of them might be getting the engine to fit in the engine bay. Remember, this is a compact car, so it's engine bay is probably quite small. But let's say you could get it to fit. But still, there are other problems. With front wheel drive cars, if you have too much power, under hard acceleration, you may get torque steer. (If you don't know what it is, Google it. This is actually a great example of my statement about trying to explain things to people who have no background on a particular subject.) That larger engine you fitted? It probably weighs more. This could upset the balance of the car, making it even more front heavy. It may understeer a lot in the corners. Those are just a few examples of the problems. There are probably others that I may not have even thought of.

So, a larger engine may not be the best solution, but that does not mean it is the only solution. Maybe you could work on the handling instead. You could upgrade the tires, upgrade the suspension. You could reduce the weight of the car, especially unsprung weight. There are many other ways to make a car faster, power is not the only answer. Power may not be the best answer. This can be related to our file access problems--a file manager is not the only solution. It also may not be the best solution. There are other ways to solve the problem, just like we did with the car. And just like how trying to upgrade the engine could cause other problems that you may not understand or know about, adding things to or modifying the OS could cause problems too. Just because you don't know about the problem, don't understand it, or choose to ignore it doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist.

That's why I suggest you leave this problem to the qualified people at Microsoft to solve instead of arguing with us about who's right and who's wrong because we're going nowhere. We don't work at Microsoft, so we can't give you the features you want, and we can't always explain the decisions they make. Instead you can make a suggestion on the Windows Phone feature suggestion site, or vote for the file manager suggestion that is probably already there, but there isn't much else you can do but hope Microsoft listens and finds a solution that satisfies both parties--something that allows a user to access his files without compromising security. The only other thing you can do is switch to a different mobile OS.

And just because Microsoft hasn't come up with a solution yet doesn't mean they're incompetent. Microsoft started late, and the Windows Phone team has been quite busy trying to get WP caught up features-wise with Android and iOS. In addition there are bugs and kinks for them to work out that appeared in WP8 that I don't think existed in WP7. They have to prioritize which features they will work on because they don't have enough resources to do everything at once. Now, some people may not agree with Kids Corner over say, custom notification tones, but it is what it is. Who knows? Maybe Microsoft already working on a solution to be included in a future update, but we just don't know yet.

So in conclusion, either be patient, understand that Microsoft does care, understand that there are reasons why they decided against a file manager, and understand that there are alternative solutions that Microsoft could implement, or just buy a different phone. Simple as that.

 

[Charles Roddie]

Those fixes take time and even then they don't get released in time to prevent ALL security issues, remember the problems with Windows XP before SP2. I'll put it simply, a file manager WILL compromise the security in Windows Phone because it gives access to every area of the OS, not just personal files.

Ridiculous. Of course a file manager with full access to protected system files will compromise security. There is no need for a file manager to access such files.
The need is for applications (including a potential file manager) to be able to access common user files, in a "My Documents" folder and SD card for example.
The #1 problem with WP is that it has no access to such a common store of files (except on SD card which not all phones have).
That's why you can't download files, attach files, save and use attachments, write a good music player, etc.. Access to a common store of files is needed to work with files, and working with files is a basic part of any OS.
I can't believe Microsoft released not one but two OSes (WP7 and WP8) without this ability.

 

[psiu_glen]

Only read the last few comments...but what? Can't download? Can't attach files? Can't save and use attachments? Music and video player not good? I do all that on my Trophy, WP7. Hmmmm.....

 

[prateek bahl]

thanks alpinestar. The solution is simple then dont go for an OS when its still looking up for solutions to basic things, because it screwed up in providing those things during the initial development stage. See, i totally agree with what all you are saying and the example you gave about the car. I am not saying that its a simple thing to make modifications to a system. You only said that WP is a new OS, so that means microsoft had all the resources and time to think and include features from the nascent stage of OS development. Just because they screwed up in the beginning, now its become a complex task to provide a basic thing like this. I have never used the word file manager in my needs, all i am saying is give me access to my files, the simple reason being that they are MY files!
For your comment about some people working in microsoft and rest of us not. What really makes you believe that if someone works at microsoft then he is got ot be the best brain in the world. Their are many other important and better things and jobs for people to do than just make codes. And this my friend is the reason why we dont work at microsoft. But if we buy a product, we expect them to provide us with what we want. not what a few people working at microsoft choose i should have!
Thanks to Microsoft's failures, i'll have to quit nokia after being using it for more than a decade now.

 

[Charles Roddie]

Only read the last few comments...but what? Can't download?

Right no program which can download any file from the internet.
In particular you cannot do this with IE.
Where is downloads folder or downloaded files in Windows Phone 8 ?

Can't attach files? Can't save and use attachments?

Right. If you go to the default email app and click attach, it assumes you are attaching a picture, ridiculous. You cannot attach a file you have stored on the phone.
You cannot save attachments from the email app because there is no place to save them which is accessible by other programs.

Music and video player not good? I do all that on my Trophy, WP7. Hmmmm.....

It is possible to write a bad music app. But it is not possible to write a good music app that will work on any Win8 phone. In particular it is not possible to write a music app with either gapless playback or folder support since you do not have access to the files, and only have access to an API which does not include these things. (You can write a good app which accesses the SD card but would not work on phones without SD card.)

All these problems are caused by lack of a common area for user files.

 

[anon(5335877)]

Ridiculous. Of course a file manager with full access to protected system files will compromise security. There is no need for a file manager to access such files.
The need is for applications (including a potential file manager) to be able to access common user files, in a "My Documents" folder and SD card for example.
The #1 problem with WP is that it has no access to such a common store of files (except on SD card which not all phones have).
That's why you can't download files, attach files, save and use attachments, write a good music player, etc.. Access to a common store of files is needed to work with files, and working with files is a basic part of any OS.
I can't believe Microsoft released not one but two OSes (WP7 and WP8) without this ability.

Again, I don't have a background in computer science, but I think the problem with that is how do you prevent apps from accessing files they shouldn't? You're thinking that security = system files not be accessed, but that's not quite true. Let's say you download a photo you want to keep private. Well since your download goes to the "My Documents" folder which any app can access, what's stopping another app from accessing that photo without your permission? I wouldn't call that secure.

Only read the last few comments...but what? Can't download? Can't attach files? Can't save and use attachments? Music and video player not good? I do all that on my Trophy, WP7. Hmmmm.....

Exactly, I'm not sure what people want other than a file manager. Like a5cent said, a file manager is just their idea of a solution to a problem, not the actual problem. The actual problem would be something like I can't download files in Internet Explorer.

thanks alpinestar. The solution is simple then dont go for an OS when its still looking up for solutions to basic things, because it screwed up in providing those things during the initial development stage. See, i totally agree with what all you are saying and the example you gave about the car. I am not saying that its a simple thing to make modifications to a system. You only said that WP is a new OS, so that means microsoft had all the resources and time to think and include features from the nascent stage of OS development. Just because they screwed up in the beginning, now its become a complex task to provide a basic thing like this. I have never used the word file manager in my needs, all i am saying is give me access to my files, the simple reason being that they are MY files!
For your comment about some people working in microsoft and rest of us not. What really makes you believe that if someone works at microsoft then he is got ot be the best brain in the world. Their are many other important and better things and jobs for people to do than just make codes. And this my friend is the reason why we dont work at microsoft. But if we buy a product, we expect them to provide us with what we want. not what a few people working at microsoft choose i should have!
Thanks to Microsoft's failures, i'll have to quit nokia after being using it for more than a decade now.

Just get another phone, and if Microsoft ever comes up with a solution to this problem, then you can try Nokia again.

 

[neo158]

Right no program which can download any file from the internet.
In particular you cannot do this with IE.
Where is downloads folder or downloaded files in Windows Phone 8 ?

Right. If you go to the default email app and click attach, it assumes you are attaching a picture, ridiculous. You cannot attach a file you have stored on the phone.
You cannot save attachments from the email app because there is no place to save them which is accessible by other programs.

All these problems are caused by lack of a common area for user files.

No, actually they are caused by a lack of education of the user, downloads from IE such as documents are what the Office Hub is for and those are accessed using the Phone option, pictures are in the saved pictures album in the photos hub. See what I'm getting at here, the relevant content shows in the relevant hub so no file manager needed.

The same goes for attaching anything other than a picture to an email, want to attach a document, tap and hold and pick the share option. PDF documents require the PDF reader app from the store but once that's installed, look at that, PDF documents show up in the Office hub!!!

 

[vish2801]

No, actually they are caused by a lack of education of the user, downloads from IE such as documents are what the Office Hub is for and those are accessed using the Phone option, pictures are in the saved pictures album in the photos hub. See what I'm getting at here, the relevant content shows in the relevant hub so no file manager needed.

The same goes for attaching anything other than a picture to an email, want to attach a document, tap and hold and pick the share option. PDF documents require the PDF reader app from the store but once that's installed, look at that, PDF documents show up in the Office hub!!!

And that's called hell lot of restrictions, why can't we simply attach files like the way we do in PC and why we have to go to individual files to attach them, why can't we attach multiple files, why can't we attach files we can't be supported by wp oh wait, we can't even see such files and people complain their other storage is increasing everyday....

 

[vish2801]

and as per the trend being followed on this forum, now someone is gonna come and ask me to go for android instead of WP8 if i want complete access.
Till 3 hours back i had almost decided that i am buying lumia 920 today. I really liked the tiles UI of WP8 and the look and feel of lumia 920 along with its screen and camera. But thankfully i got hold of this forum and got to know about the lack of such a basic functionality in WP8.
Now i am stuck with no other option other than android, even though i neither like the feel of its UI, nor i wanted to go away from Nokia after having E7 and then 701 for a long time.

Don't buy WP for such high price, if you wanna buy any phone below 20k INR, WP is a good choice and it's because of Nokia providing the best hardware at that price point unlike other android manufacturers, if you wanna buy phone above 20k INR, simply buy Android at this moment because WP isn't worth to spend so much money as it lacks a lot of basic features, lot of restrictions and lack of apps which you deserve to get at that price point, well WP actually has most of apps which we use daily but lack of features is a deal breaker, I would suggest you to go for HTC One or Nexus 4 as LG just launched it in India if you're fron India and your name suggests so. Or simply wait till WP BLUE Update which is kind of massive and will bring a lot of new and actual features.

 

[prateek bahl]

Don't buy WP for such high price, if you wanna buy any phone below 20k INR, WP is a good choice and it's because of Nokia providing the best hardware at that price point unlike other android manufacturers, if you wanna buy phone above 20k INR, simply buy Android at this moment because WP isn't worth to spend so much money as it lacks a lot of basic features, lot of restrictions and lack of apps which you deserve to get at that price point, well WP actually has most of apps which we use daily but lack of features is a deal breaker, I would suggest you to go for HTC One or Nexus 4 as LG just launched it in India if you're fron India and your name suggests so. Or simply wait till WP BLUE Update which is kind of massive and will bring a lot of new and actual features.

Thanks Vish. Got htc one x +. Saw this discussion at the right time and was saved from making a blusterous decision

 

[neo158]

And that's called hell lot of restrictions, why can't we simply attach files like the way we do in PC and why we have to go to individual files to attach them, why can't we attach multiple files, why can't we attach files we can't be supported by wp oh wait, we can't even see such files and people complain their other storage is increasing everyday....

"And that's called hell lot of restrictions ..."

Not really, I wouldn't expect to have to go into a file manager to find my music to play it. That's where the Music + Video Hub comes in and pulls all my music and video, whether it's from the SD Card on stored on the phone so I go into one place to play it, same goes for all the other hubs.

"... why can't we simply attach files like the way we do in PC and why we have to go to individual files to attach them ..."

Because this isn't a PC it's a phone. If you want that sort of functionality then get a Windows MOBILE device or an Android phone.

"... why can't we attach files we can't be supported by wp ..."

Files that are unsupported by the phone itself shouldn't be downloaded on the phone then, plain and simple. For example, if I'm downloading drivers for a PC then I download them on another PC, not on my phone.

 

[OzRob]

And that's called hell lot of restrictions, why can't we simply attach files like the way we do in PC and why we have to go to individual files to attach them, why can't we attach multiple files, why can't we attach files we can't be supported by wp oh wait, we can't even see such files and people complain their other storage is increasing everyday....

The point that everyone seems to be missing is that file management is not something that is an 'addon' or app, it's a set of functions that need to be built into the underlying OS. I'm sure Microsoft could add this to WP, but at what price?

Consider this - WP8 is a lightweight phone operating system that has been almost universally praised for its responsiveness and lack of 'lag', even on relatively modest hardware. One reason for this is that the OS is not weighed down by excessive features and functions commonly found on a desktop OS (which runs on considerably gruntier hardware and serves a completely different purpose). Android, on the other hand, has been almost universally criticized because it lags on even the heftiest phone hardware. But it does have a lot of these underlying features and functions commonly found in a desktop operating system, of which an open and generalized file management system is one. And keep in mind that adding sub-systems such as generalised file management and then exposing this for use by third-party apps will compromise file security unless you add even more layers of code to protect that security.

There's a lesson here. The more features and functions you build in at the operating system level, the more you load up the hardware that the OS runs on. Creating a lag-free experience while catering for the functions and capabilities customers want is a balancing act. Microsoft - whether you agree or not - has opted not to add the overheads of a generalised file management system and the API to access it (and the security layers to protect it) to WP8. Personally, I hope they don't go down this route unless/until they can optimise the functions to the point where it doesn't impact on the overall responsiveness of the WP operating system.

Bottom line is WP is not a desktop operating system and doesn't have the overheads of such a system. If it did it would probably run a lot more like Android on similar hardware.

That said - and this is something that has been pointed out many times in this thread - Microsoft must (and I've no doubt it will) improve the functionality of systems (such as email) to allow easier attaching of files. But this is a far cry from implementing a 'file manager'.