Will Windows Phone continue to avoid to make a File Manager?

[vish2801]

It's not my excuse I don't care if there's a file manager or not. I personally don't watch movies on my phone, and don't like copying stuff on it through the mess that is the Windows Phone 8 app. All that I'm saying is that the argument of syncing video doesn't stand in the utopic world that we are supposed to be living in with these phones where you use Netflix, hulu, Xbox video etc.

You do know that all those apps are irrelevant outside USA and in countries like India, we don't have unlimited 3G connection or unlimited bb plans available. So you can understand our situation, even smart phone is the 1st gadget people buy in their life, 50%%+ of them don't have pc. So when WP7 came without functionalities like lack of Bluetooth transfer to other phones,file manager and no download support, Nokia lost some credibility here, still people don't know WP8 has overcome some of the issues but still file management system is big deal here.

 

[vish2801]

The message is that there's never going to be a file manager for WP. Deal with it or move on. It's up to you.

This is how WP looses its customers......

 

[N_LaRUE]

This is how WP looses its customers......

The issue you're running into talking to people who are 'happy' with the way WP is, is just that. They haven no issues. They think it's perfect. They don't see 'your' need and they don't see why it would be 'better'. All they see is WP becoming Android if things like this are implemented. That is not the case or the reality of what the majority wants on this thread but you can't convince those who feel the OS is perfect, as is, cause it suits them just fine.

 

[a5cent]

Look N_LaRUE. I'm sure you won't appreciate it, but I'm going to target you again. I'm sorry. Take it as a compliment. It means I don't think you're hopeless. ;-)

The issue you're running into talking to people who are 'happy' with the way WP is, is just that. They haven no issues. They think it's perfect. They don't see 'your' need and they don't see why it would be 'better'. All they see is WP becoming Android if things like this are implemented. That is not the case or the reality of what the majority wants on this thread but you can't convince those who feel the OS is perfect, as is, cause it suits them just fine.

Most of us that oppose your views have personally stated that we think all is not well in WP land. We've stated, over and over again, that we see the same issues and we too want them resolved. Quite a few have mentioned that our disagreement is not about the problems, but about the feasible solutions. After all that, how is it not glaringly obvious to you that the above quote is complete and utter BS? It just don't get it... I couldn't be more baffled.

What I also fail to understand is where the need comes from to so stubbornly insist that a file manager is the only conceivable solution. As long as the issues are resolved, does it really matter precisely how? Apparently it does matter, but why is a complete mystery to me.

So after some searching I found this PDF which is from Microsoft explaining the secrity in Windows Phone which was a PowerPoint presentation.

That PDF is a good find. I hadn't seen it before. If that's the type of thing you're after, then I can also recommend this and this.

I just doubt those resources will actually help you understand the issues any better. The problem is that those resources explain only the components and API's that make up WP's security model, but not why everything was designed in that particular fashion. Unfortunately, that is precisely what we would need to understand. None of those documents explain that angle. I'm still not aware of any that do. Why is such important information being omitted. Who knows? Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks it's impossible to explain in just a few pages?

 

[Jrexxx]

You do know that all those apps are irrelevant outside USA and in countries like India, we don't have unlimited 3G connection or unlimited bb plans available. So you can understand our situation, even smart phone is the 1st gadget people buy in their life, 50%%+ of them don't have pc. So when WP7 came without functionalities like lack of Bluetooth transfer to other phones,file manager and no download support, Nokia lost some credibility here, still people don't know WP8 has overcome some of the issues but still file management system is big deal here.

Believe me, I understand you, I'm from lebanon. Still i don't think that a file manager is the solution for your problem. I think that the way that ios handles it is gat: on my ipad I can just drag and drop files to the application that is supposed to open them via itunes. That way yo have a sort of file manager but only on your pc and you avoid all the negatives of a file manager like on Android. However, seeing that MS's app for managing your phone is AWFUL I don't see that happening any time soon...

 

[N_LaRUE]

Most of us that oppose your views have personally stated that we think all is not well in WP land. We've stated, over and over again, that we see the same issues and we too want them resolved. Quite a few have mentioned that our disagreement is not about the problems, but about the feasible solutions. After all that, how is it not glaringly obvious to you that the above quote is complete and utter BS? It just don't get it... I couldn't be more baffled.

I don't mind being targeted. Anyway it's not utter BS as there are some comments on this thread that are like that. I did make a generalized statement but maybe I should have scaled it back some.

I guess what you may gather from most of the comments is that people are disappointed that for a 'Windows Phone' to have no file explorer/manager (whatever you want to call it) capability seems a little short sighted. Especially for those coming from Symbian (like myself and many from India and other 'third world countries) who want to stick with Nokia.

Now is there a solution? No idea. I don't understand the nuances enough that's why I asked the question. Could a file manager/explorer be put in the system safely? Again I don't know. I pointed out the iOS solution and there are probably several different ways of doing this. The point is, will MS allow for or provide a solution because even though there are those who feel they don't need it, there are many who feel they do.

In many ways I see no solution to the situation and there will be a lot of people selling their WP simply because it doesn't provide solutions for what they want and the people who will be doing this are the ones where MS has the most to gain, India and China. You may think I'm being over the top but going by the small amount of comments on here by those in India it appears pretty obvious that if some solution isn't brought forward it's possible MS will lose a large chunk of the market there and in other countries where they feel something is needed. I hope MS comes up with something but they're being slower than snails and the WP8 OS appears to be, in some ways, a degrade compared to WP7.

 

[a5cent]

It's really too much that people who know very little about computers come out with bold claims like files are not important. It is understandable that Microsoft's marketing department must advertise gaps and bugs as if they were features, just as all the gaps in WP7 that were filled in WP8 were originally advertised as features. What is harder to understand is how people are fooled by it.

What are you referring to? At least in this thread I can't recall anyone claiming files are not important. I don't recall MS making any such claim either. In fact, I'd wish they would. At this point I'd take almost anything over MS' shut up mantra...

You didn't wait for the answer. Security is provided in the following ways:
1. The user/ an app that the user has chosen has decided to put the file in my documents rather than isolated storage.
2. The accessing app has been approved by Microsoft for publication in the Windows Store, which rules out most malicious software
3. The user has chosen to install this app, informed by reviews etc.
4. The user has explicitly given the app permission to access the files/folders, for example selecting them via an OS-provided file/folder picker

#4 is a strong guarantee of security, but even #1 to #3 are sufficient. All are present in WinRT apps.

Please explain how you can do the following on for example a Nokia 920 phone (WP8, without SD card).
- Put a 20GB collection of music on the phone with a folder structure and play it back gaplessly.
- Attach a pdf and two word documents to a single email.
- Transfer files from PC via USB.
- Store a collection of ebooks on the phone, for access from any ebook reader.
These are the sorts of problems solved, not by a file manager, but by a user documents folder (needed to allow a file manager).

I like your suggestion. I suspect many do, as it is a common one. I think it was last referred to as an OS implemented file/folder chooser, and it's been mentioned more than once in this thread already. Obviously this is not at all a file manager app. It's not even an app, but a component that is embedded within those apps that require file access. If we're really imagining the same thing, I expect it to solve solve two big problems:

• ability specify a file for use by another app (file to attach to e-mail, file to upload via DropBox, file to unrar in WPrar, etc)
• ability to specify a folder into which to save a downloaded file of an arbitrary type (download a file from the internet)

I think this is a start. What this doesn't give us is the ability to work with files that reside in local storage. Ultimately, I think we need the ability to do both.

 

[a5cent]

Anyway it's not utter BS as there are some comments on this thread that are like that.

I don't see that at all. I went back a few pages, and as far as I can tell not a single person was saying all is fine and dandy. I guess we can just chalk it up to each of us weighing comments differently.

I pointed out the iOS solution and there are probably several different ways of doing this. The point is, will MS allow for or provide a solution because even though there are those who feel they don't need it, there are many who feel they do. .

Yes, well, technically, WP could match the iOS solution you mentioned 100%. Right now. No help or intervention from MS required. Athough I don't really know, I suspect MS's silence on this issue is the worst possible stance they could take. Nobody knows what or even if we'll ever get a solution from MS, and until devs are sure they aren't wasting their time, they are unlikely to start developing their own alternatives. I feel this is an area where MS really needs to reveal their plans. Now...

In many ways I see no solution to the situation...

I've been saying for ages that there are many solutions to this problem. Hundreds literally. Look. This is one of the really simple solutions, although it does come with a few caveats:

Believe it or not, WP's security model is actually very similar to Symbian's. Both know the concept of local storage, although on Symbian it was called caged data. It is described here. As you know, Symbian did support a file manager. Assuming MS is willing to make a few compromises, they could adopt a bit more of Symbian's security model by implementing Symbian's concept of 'data caging for file access' which would give WP that same file manager capability. The caveats?

1. MS would be relaxing some of WP's restrictions, thereby exposing a larger attack surface.
2. MS would be placing some responsibility for security into the hands of app developers. Although software developers are generally a rather smart bunch, they don't have a good track record when it comes to security. The question isn't if problems will occur, but when.
3. The solution would only work after every developer adapts their apps to make use of the new security model features. As such, it would take some time before WP users didn't just theoretically have a file manager, but also saw it working as intended.

For all I know, this might be exactly what MS decides to do, theirby granting all of you your wish. I have strong doubts, but it is nevertheless in the realm of possibility. My point is, there are many solutions to this situation.

The question isn't if an acceptable solution exists, but rather if MS has any intention of implementing one of them and getting it out fast enough.

IYou may think I'm being over the top but going by the small amount of comments on here by those in India it appears pretty obvious that if some solution isn't brought forward it's possible MS will lose a large chunk of the market there and in other countries where they feel something is needed. I hope MS comes up with something..

I don't think you are over the top and I agree, and because of that, although you wouldn't think it, we are actually on the same side.

Unfortunately, for some reason, none of the things I mention seem to stick with any of you. I do try, but I can't change the fact that this is a complicated subject. Unless you're an Architect yourself, there comes a time when you've got to trust him that his calculations are correct and that the building he's designed will stand. The same is true in some areas of computer science. This is one of them.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I don't think you are over the top and I agree, and because of that, although you wouldn't think it, we are actually on the same side

I think something got lost in translation somewhere in this thread. Either in the way I stated something or the way you read what I wrote. In any case my idea is idential to this one:

•ability specify a file for use by another app (file to attach to e-mail, file to upload via DropBox, file to unrar in WPrar, etc)
•ability to specify a folder into which to save a downloaded file of an arbitrary type (download a file from the internet)

That's all I want too.I don't want a complete thorough file system manager, that's not really necessary. My statement from the get go (excuse me while I don't go looking for it) was all I wanted was access to the same folders that are accessed when you connect your phone to the computer. Nothing more. I thought since these folders are accessible already they seemed the logical choice. I presonally don't see a need for more than this but I guess others might.

So I guess it's in MS court now. I personally think, and this is pure opinion, that there should be some user responsiblity when it comes to security. Going by that PDF I found I don't see how malware would be an issue so long as people stick to using the MS Store. It's only when people try to sideload that things would be an issue. As long as that ability is not allowed I think the security side of things would still be strong enough, at least I would hope so.

In any case I'm giving MS until Blue. If the update doesn't include a way of dealing with files that are not native to the phone I'm going elsewhere. It's simply a feature I can't live without.

I'll leave it there.

 

[tungha]

I think something got lost in translation somewhere in this thread. Either in the way I stated something or the way you read what I wrote. In any case my idea is idential to this one:



That's all I want too.I don't want a complete thorough file system manager, that's not really necessary. My statement from the get go (excuse me while I don't go looking for it) was all I wanted was access to the same folders that are accessed when you connect your phone to the computer. Nothing more. I thought since these folders are accessible already they seemed the logical choice. I presonally don't see a need for more than this but I guess others might.

So I guess it's in MS court now. I personally think, and this is pure opinion, that there should be some user responsiblity when it comes to security. Going by that PDF I found I don't see how malware would be an issue so long as people stick to using the MS Store. It's only when people try to sideload that things would be an issue. As long as that ability is not allowed I think the security side of things would still be strong enough, at least I would hope so.

In any case I'm giving MS until Blue. If the update doesn't include a way of dealing with files that are not native to the phone I'm going elsewhere. It's simply a feature I can't live without.

I'll leave it there.

yeah, when WP8 launched I also hope they would give us an impressive OS but that didn't happen. So this time may be the last chance for Microsoft and I hope they'll do well to satisfy customers

 

[Dave Blake]

yeah, when WP8 launched I also hope they would give us an impressive OS but that didn't happen. So this time may be the last chance for Microsoft and I hope they'll do well to satisfy customers

So much doom and gloom and so unnecessary. Have you seen the numbers? Windows Phone is being adopted by many and is out pacing even Android in new adopters. Relax and take a step back for the disaster wheel people. Its not all bad news. Microsoft will get to adding more features. We are not on your time scale it will happen when it happens. The members of this community that find WP appealing and enjoy using the OS are not wrong. Not everyone needs what you need from an OS.

You came here from somewhere. Why? What brought you to buy a WP? Most are tired of the same old same old so think about that. WP SO does most thing mentioned in this thread it is just done differently. Microsoft has decided some things need to be done on a table or PC. That is a different way of doing things. You wanted something different you got it make the best of it until Microsoft decides to add the feature you are requesting.

Does anyone here really think that Microsoft is done adding features to the OS?

Why all the doom and gloom. Be patient enjoy what you have now. The fastest most productive stable OS on the market.

 

[boxa72]

I've stayed away from this thread for sometime now as I didn't want to continue talking around in circles with people who seemed to 'know' or 'understand' the OS system and it's security features but didn't have any way of explaining the issues. So after some searching I found this PDF which is from Microsoft explaining the secrity in Windows Phone which was a PowerPoint presentation.

https://www.msec.be/mobcom/ws2013/presentations/david_hernie.pdf

Now I'm no expert on the security side of things but it looks like they have a lot of security in place. The main part that interested me was the division between the OS kernel and the 'less previleged' parts of the OS and the fact the the apps are installed in 'sandbox' security methods. Even though I now have a better grasp on how things work I do however believe that implementing a file storage area which can be accessed by programs on the phone is still possible and I don't see how doing so would effect the security of the OS.

Please let me know if I'm off track.

thx 4 that! I've only just started to become interested in programming and that was a very interesting read. I don't think you were far off track at all!!!

 

[N_LaRUE]

So much doom and gloom and so unnecessary. Have you seen the numbers? Windows Phone is being adopted by many and is out pacing even Android in new adopters. Relax and take a step back for the disaster wheel people. Its not all bad news. Microsoft will get to adding more features. We are not on your time scale it will happen when it happens. The members of this community that find WP appealing and enjoy using the OS are not wrong. Not everyone needs what you need from an OS.

You came here from somewhere. Why? What brought you to buy a WP? Most are tired of the same old same old so think about that. WP SO does most thing mentioned in this thread it is just done differently. Microsoft has decided some things need to be done on a table or PC. That is a different way of doing things. You wanted something different you got it make the best of it until Microsoft decides to add the feature you are requesting.

Does anyone here really think that Microsoft is done adding features to the OS?

Why all the doom and gloom. Be patient enjoy what you have now. The fastest most productive stable OS on the market.

I don't think it's so much doom and gloom as frustration and impatience. Which is slightly understandable.

What brought me to WP? Nokia. That's it. It also looked a little different and thought I'd give it a go. If Nokia didn't go to WP I wouldn't be on WP. I was ready for a phone upgrade as I felt I'd run my course with Symbian. I should have looked before I leaped however.

I've come to the conclusion that MS does things different but not necessarily always better. Your comment about doing things on different devices, if that were true why give us Office on mobile? It's not exactly the best device for the situation. What I want is a powerful mobile device to complement my work practices and my social life. I don't get 100% satisfaction on WP with either at the moment.

So to be clear. I really want WP to succeed and I hope we see good things out of MS this year with the updates and with the Blue update (hopefully they're listening to their users). That being said there comes a point where one has to decide whether it's working for you, that's why I've given Blue as my cut off point. I think that's fair and probably a lot more fair than what others have given them. There are many people who dumped WP within the first week of having it. I've had mine since January so I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

 

[N_LaRUE]

thx 4 that! I've only just started to become interested in programming and that was a very interesting read. I don't think you were far off track at all!!!

Glad that helped you.

 

[tungha]

So much doom and gloom and so unnecessary. Have you seen the numbers? Windows Phone is being adopted by many and is out pacing even Android in new adopters. Relax and take a step back for the disaster wheel people. Its not all bad news. Microsoft will get to adding more features. We are not on your time scale it will happen when it happens. The members of this community that find WP appealing and enjoy using the OS are not wrong. Not everyone needs what you need from an OS.

You came here from somewhere. Why? What brought you to buy a WP? Most are tired of the same old same old so think about that. WP SO does most thing mentioned in this thread it is just done differently. Microsoft has decided some things need to be done on a table or PC. That is a different way of doing things. You wanted something different you got it make the best of it until Microsoft decides to add the feature you are requesting.

Does anyone here really think that Microsoft is done adding features to the OS?

Why all the doom and gloom. Be patient enjoy what you have now. The fastest most productive stable OS on the market.

Dude, what's wrong with you, I never say that everything with WP8 is crap. I said it already, I've been with this OS since the very beginning and I never give up my hope for MS' ecosystem. What i said is that Microsoft need to be hurry, with me (or you), may be that's fine and unnecessary but for others, that might not be ok and they'll easily jump to other platforms. Yeah, you may say who doesn't want to use can choose another platform, but what's the point if even WE don't have enough things to love and certain about the future. What I want is the confirmation from MS about what's coming and what's next, not to keep silence about everything and push slowly update like now. Comparing WP8 with Windows 8, I think there might be lots of things WP need to learn from Windows team.

BTW, if you want to know who I am, you can Google about me with the keyword: "tdiddy.2"

 

[boxa72]

I don't see why the file manager is needed even in this case. You can use your PC to sync/copy the files over to the phone since you are not downloading it.

bro he might only have access to his phone! He did say he's from a third world country, he might not have access to a PC!

 

[N_LaRUE]

I know English not 'human language' as there are many. Judging by your grammar and spelling it may be you who is lacking? Would you like to try your statement again so that I can understand what point you're making?

 

[a5cent]

I think something got lost in translation somewhere in this thread. Either in the way I stated something or the way you read what I wrote. In any case my idea is identical.

Likely due to both. This was your latest suggestion:

I do however believe that implementing a file storage area which can be accessed by programs on the phone is still possible and I don't see how doing so would effect the security of the OS.

You specifically mentioned a storage area which can be accessed by apps. If apps can access the common storage area, that gives them the ability to go on exploration trips across everything in it. That would even facilitate 3rd party file manager apps. That would definitely increase WP's attack surface.

Without any further input from you, that is still how I would I understand your suggestion, which is not identical to what Charles Roddie (and many before him) suggested, where apps have no technical means by which they can access, much less discover, anything outside local storage. Apps can only ask the user to "pass them a file from somewhere", by way of an OS provided component, and only for a temporary duration.

IMHO, you just never specified your idea to the degree Charles Roddie did, and I admit that amongst all the militant calls for a full blown file manager, I likely leaned towards interpreting ambiguities more along those lines then what you actually meant. Sorry.

Ironically, I actually wouldn't be satisfied with that solution. Why not? Because working with files in the common storage area wouldn't exactly be quick and easy. A PDF reader couldn't simply display the PDF files stored there (remember, no access), so we'd be required to open such files explicitly with the file chooser each time. It would likely also lead to everyone storing everything in the common storage area instead of in local storage, because only from there could we attach those files to e-mails, upload them to DropBox, or whatever. That somewhat defeats the purpose of local storage, and it is simply at odds with the concept of having app hubs be the entities that do file management for us.

IMHO, a common storage area's main purpose it to serve as a place to store files which either no app can work with (some random file off the internet), or multiple apps can work with (such as media files). It shouldn't become the default storage location for everything, which is what I think this suggestion, without further measures, would make it.

A few final comments:

Going by that PDF I found I don't see how malware would be an issue so long as people stick to using the MS Store.

Any security researcher will tell you that WP is the most secure mobile OS on the market. To a large degree that is due to the isolated storage and security level concepts mentioned in those documents. The limitations we're complaining about here are a result of those concepts. As long as the security model stays the way it is, I don't see how malware could cause any significant damage either.

The whole reason for the clashing in this thread, is because almost all the suggestions made by the 'file manager' camp would have required changes to the security model to function as intended.

I personally think, and this is pure opinion, that there should be some user responsibility when it comes to security.

I once agreed, but disagree now. That is how it should be, but experience has shown us that the average user simply isn't able to cope with that responsibility. Worse, at the end of the day, no matter how at fault a user may have been, it is the IT community that takes the blame. I know more than just a few MS employees who were frustrated with this. WP's though security model is a result of those experiences.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Without any further input from you, that is still how I would I understand your suggestion, which is not identical to what Charles Roddie (and many before him) suggested, where apps have no technical means by which they can access, much less discover, anything outside local storage. Apps can only ask the user to "pass them a file from somewhere", by way of an OS provided component, and only for a temporary duration.

IMHO, you just never specified your idea to the degree Charles Roddie did, and I admit that amongst all the militant calls for a full blown file manager, I likely leaned towards interpreting ambiguities more along those lines then what you actually meant. Sorry.

Misunderstanding on both sides. I didn't read prior posts and my ideas haven't been that clear. Obviously we agree that 'something' is needed, how it's implemented and maintains security is the question I guess. I am 'happy' with a compromised solution so long as I can use the files as I please and download what files I want. That's pretty much where I am.

 

[Juhi Dhar]

Ok, I ran out of patience after the first 3 pages of replies lol. Basically the discussion seems to be a 'to be or not to be' type situation for a file manager. I will start by saying that I am an average user, i.e. not a techie (can't write code) but well versed in using technology, so not a basic user (call and txt only type user ). And I can say that I'm on team file manager! Let me explain why, someone did point out that a file manager type facility should be there to download files and re-attach files to emails on the move, and that is one the many situations where it is definitely needed! Another is due to windows weird storage issues, the problem I am facing is that, I have a 32 GB external card installed. But despite that I am constantly out of memory only because videos i pre-load for watching on metrotube or books that I've bought in kindle and audible ALL load onto my phone storage taking up it's very limited 8gb(-1.9 gb) space. This requires me to constantly delete and re-load them to constantly make space. I am wasting time and DATA doing this regularly. Now if only there was a file manager type facility ( while I do understand apps need to be contained and run in their secured environments but some ability does need to be given to us to move non executable files to the external storage cards!!) I could move the files out of the app data storage (in my phone) to the external storage devices! Now before I get stupid responses like 'get an android' I will say I love my windows phone and OS but it definitely is not perfect!! and this is a very basic and genuine need I don't understand why it is so controversial. I want to free up space in my phone's storage and move stuff to my external storage, plus what about transferring videos downloaded to my pc/laptop? I can't even see those videos on windows explorer.............
this is a problem and does need a solution........... I am sure there can be a compromised solution that gives us secured control unlike the structure in android (which is so open that mistakes can and are made requiring recovery )