Sharing Apps between two accounts

hopmedic

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This is an example of ignorance speaking. Stealing a Mercedes would be taking something away that the dealer actually had. If I shared an app with someone in my family, you lose nothing, you just don't gain anything either.

You gain something you don't pay for, you steal. Many years of case law support this. Intellectual Property IS still property that belongs to the creator, and according to the terms of the sale, you are only purchasing rights to USE that IP, WITHIN THE TERMS OF USE which you are clearly violating if you share the app with someone in your family. You are stealing, and I am losing a sale. By doing this, you are a criminal.
 

hopmedic

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the one thing I'd like to see is the distribution of free codes for a Surface version of the app if you bought the WP version. Since iOS has a unified app platform you can buy an iphone app and rn it on your iPad. Since you can't do that on WP8/W8 it would be nice if the developers helped facilitate such a function.\

Also, on Windows 8 you CAN buy an app once and have multiple users use it. It doesn't work perfectly if the app stores user settings centrally, but it works.

I would like to see Microsoft come up with a method to support this as well. It would not work the same as iOS, since at this point (perhaps in the future) the same code cannot work on both devices, but should a developer create an app for both devices, and decide that if a person purchases on one, and wants to include the other free, that's fine - I'm good with that. The problem right now is that you're talking about two separate programs, because they do not work on both devices.

I've got an idea to port one of my apps to Win8, and if I ever come up with time to do it, I'd like to sync the data with phone, and if I do that, at this point I don't think I'd want to charge twice. But you're talking about development time for two apps, not just one, and on top of that, I'd have to create my own method of tracking who paid for one, and unlocking the "paid" version of the other since Microsoft doesn't provide that tracking method. This means extra expense and more work, as I'd have to have a web site with a database, and sufficient bandwidth, and so on. It also means that people are going to look at the app with a bit more suspicion because when they look at the capabilities that are required, and see "Individual Identity" people wonder, "Why does the app need that???"
 

Skelnik

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Let's take a look at a real-life case example. I've got a Windows Phone, and so does my wife. We each have our phones tied to our own individual Microsoft accounts, and we each purchase our apps separately for our individual phones. Since my phone is a Windows Phone 8 (my wife hasn't upgraded yet), I can pass my phone to my daughter so that she can play the apps that I've purchased and have pinned to her Kids Zone. So far, I'm satisfied with this setup.

I also have a Surface tablet that my wife and I both use. We each have an individual login tied to our individual Microsoft accounts so that we can check our own email, calendar, and notifications. However, if I were to buy a Microsoft Store app for the tablet on my account, it's not available on her account without re-purchasing, even though it's already installed on the tablet and only one of us can use the tablet at a time. With traditional Windows computers, installing an application on one computer can and usually does allow that application to be used by other people on the same machine, even when logged into other accounts.

Furthermore, I'd like to set up a login on the tablet for my daughter which is not tied to a Microsoft account. This is possible, but I'd like to be able to purchase apps for the tablet on my account and have them be available to my daughter on her (local) account.

My suggestions:


  1. Allow applications that are purchased by the primary (Administrator) account on a device to be used by other accounts on the same device. This should give some flexibility without opening up a loophole that would create rampant application oversharing.
  2. Allow users to group their individual Microsoft accounts into "Family" groups. Then offer a Family price for applications (both W8 and WP8) that will unlock those apps for everyone in the family group (and perhaps a price to upgrade on already bought app to the Family price). I think a Family price that's double the individual app's price would be fair, and I think there may need to be limits on who can be in a family group (off the top of my head: same last name, perhaps a limited number of accounts can join). The upside for Microsoft and App developers is that there's more incentive for everyone in a family to be on the same platform, therefore more apps will be sold.
  3. Alternately, if at least two accounts in the same family group purchase the same app, then it unlocks for the rest of the accounts in the family group.
  4. I agree with Inteller that purchasing a W8 or WP8 app should ideally unlock the same app on the other platform.

I write this post as an avid Windows platform user and promoter, and as a software developer.
 

gibbyhome

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I know that this is possible in windows8 but not so much I think on win phone 8 with the PC you can buy an app for example a game that my kid likes, log off the PC and logon as the son, connect to the marketplace and Change the logon there to my id and download the game under the sons profile disconnect the store from your account and log him back in. I don't know if you can do the same on the web with windowsphone store..
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Skelnik

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I know that this is possible in windows8 but not so much I think on win phone 8 with the PC you can buy an app for example a game that my kid likes, log off the PC and logon as the son, connect to the marketplace and Change the logon there to my id and download the game under the sons profile disconnect the store from your account and log him back in. I don't know if you can do the same on the web with windowsphone store..

Good tip, this should solve the issue of purchasing the app twice on the same tablet!
 

gibbyhome

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Yea what would be nice is to logon to the phone with my id and install the apps I bought but no so lucky
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theomodsim

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All I have to say is no one is stealing from a developer by account sharing if they aren't going to pay for it in the first place.

For many apps, there's integration with a web service that the developer has to pay for (using Azure, etc.). The cost of this service depends on how much server resources were used, which would most likely be proportional to the number of users of the app. So by not buying an app and using it anyways, you are hurting the developer.
 

inteller

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another anecdote, There is a member of the household that cant download Netflix on W8 because it is a child account. So, I logged into that account, changed the Store live ID to my own, downloaded netflix, then changed the account back. Now, for whatever reason, Windows Store thinks that child account has netflix now and applies updates to that app and whatnot....so account app management in Windows 8 is loosey goosey. I don't think the same paradigm applies with phones, because unless you are sharing a single phone (unlikely) there is no reason every user of that device should get the app. plus, phones don't support multiple users natively.
 

Infamy_dd

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@ironsoulreaver it isn't so much about supporting developers, is that only one household should pay for the app. IOS is like this, it is like saying that I would need to buy another a copy of black ops 2 for each member of my family. Or buying a copy of office of each user account.

Actually, the Office license (the cheaper one) is One Device, One User. There's a more expensive one for three devices.
 

hopmedic

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Let's take a look at a real-life case example. I've got a Windows Phone, and so does my wife. We each have our phones tied to our own individual Microsoft accounts, and we each purchase our apps separately for our individual phones. Since my phone is a Windows Phone 8 (my wife hasn't upgraded yet), I can pass my phone to my daughter so that she can play the apps that I've purchased and have pinned to her Kids Zone. So far, I'm satisfied with this setup.

I also have a Surface tablet that my wife and I both use. We each have an individual login tied to our individual Microsoft accounts so that we can check our own email, calendar, and notifications. However, if I were to buy a Microsoft Store app for the tablet on my account, it's not available on her account without re-purchasing, even though it's already installed on the tablet and only one of us can use the tablet at a time. With traditional Windows computers, installing an application on one computer can and usually does allow that application to be used by other people on the same machine, even when logged into other accounts.

Furthermore, I'd like to set up a login on the tablet for my daughter which is not tied to a Microsoft account. This is possible, but I'd like to be able to purchase apps for the tablet on my account and have them be available to my daughter on her (local) account.

My suggestions:


  1. Allow applications that are purchased by the primary (Administrator) account on a device to be used by other accounts on the same device. This should give some flexibility without opening up a loophole that would create rampant application oversharing.
  2. Allow users to group their individual Microsoft accounts into "Family" groups. Then offer a Family price for applications (both W8 and WP8) that will unlock those apps for everyone in the family group (and perhaps a price to upgrade on already bought app to the Family price). I think a Family price that's double the individual app's price would be fair, and I think there may need to be limits on who can be in a family group (off the top of my head: same last name, perhaps a limited number of accounts can join). The upside for Microsoft and App developers is that there's more incentive for everyone in a family to be on the same platform, therefore more apps will be sold.
  3. Alternately, if at least two accounts in the same family group purchase the same app, then it unlocks for the rest of the accounts in the family group.
  4. I agree with Inteller that purchasing a W8 or WP8 app should ideally unlock the same app on the other platform.

I write this post as an avid Windows platform user and promoter, and as a software developer.
I think your suggestions are perfectly reasonable, with only one exception, but I'm going to take it that your suggestions were thrown out there as suggestions open for discussion to be polished, and not iron-clad finished products. :wink:

With tablets (and for the sake of argument, desktop and laptop computers running Win8), those devices are not the same as phones. A phone is typically carried by one person, while those other devices are typically shared among more than one. I see nothing wrong with sharing apps on a device between users, and was unaware that you couldn't do it under the current model. This doesn't mean that I think we should all go out and bypass it - but that perhaps your suggestion is something Microsoft should consider. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say we should break the law because what it is now is wrong, but I'm saying perhaps reexamine the model to better reflect the use of the devices. But then again, I haven't been arguing anything about Windows 8. I've been arguing Windows Phone.

Microsoft already has a "family" setup on their accounts, though I'm not very familiar with it. I don't think it has anything to do with app purchasing, but has to do with tracking your childrens' online history, restrictions, and such. Since they already have that in place, though, I wonder how hard it would be to set up your suggestions on purchasing. The limitation that you suggest for same last name is the one exception that I said I don't agree with. The reason for that is because of families where there have been divorce/remarriage where parents and children don't always have the same last name. My step-daughter's children don't have her last name. But that's a minor point. What I would suggest for restrictions would be something like, two parents (with no ability to track each other's online activities), and x children, where x is some number to be determined, I'm not sure what that number should be... But as the children in the account, they need to accept the condition that the parent accounts have full access to their online activities. This would be a deterrent to say, the next door neighbor, from signing up as your kid. The only reason I'm even familiar with this is because I just recently set up Microsoft Family Security (or something like that) on my step-daughter's computer for her and the grandkids.

As far as offering a single price and a family price, there's a win-win. Because the developer isn't having to give it away to the whole family for the same price as if one person buys it, he's getting an extra something out of it, yet the family is getting a discount. I'm not sure that I'd go along with just a husband/wife as being enough to justify discount, but let's leave it on the table for discussion for the moment. I'll definitely accept it for a famly - buy 2, get a family of five. Or whatever.

I'd go with buying on one unlocks on the other platform, only on a couple of conditions, and leave it open for discussion should other points come up. First, leave it up to the developer. If I want to do it, sure. But don't force it. Sure, it's probably in my best interest to do it, but if one platform is a big hit, and then I develop the other platform, why shouldn't I get something extra from that extra work? But if I develop the two apps to work in conjunction together, and I decide to let them go for one price, that should be up to me. The other condition - Microsoft puts the framework in place to support it. Why should each independent developer keep reinventing the wheel? Let's see... Hundreds of thousands of hosted sites, databases, web services written to check to see if a person bought an app on the other platform, so the app will unlock on this platform.... Or write it all once, host it in one place, just like the Trial API. There's no need for all of that work to be duplicated so many times by so many people. Sure, I could make one of the apps free, and charge for the other, but why shouldn't the user just buy it on whichever they were on first?

This weekend, we had to tell our grandson that he could no longer use my wife's Trophy, that he could only use my 822, which I am not nearly as free with allowing him to use. This is because I was going through my wife's purchase history, setting up my old Trophy for her, as her loudspeaker is bad, so we're going to switch her to my old phone. What did I discover? That there have literally been hundreds of games installed on her phone. But when we look in the phone, there are a half a dozen there. So the sneaky little devil has been installing games that he knew we wouldn't allow him to play, playing them, then uninstalling them. Can't do that in the kids' corner, huh? Well, at least he owned up to it, so I didn't get mad at him. I told him that I was proud of him for telling the truth, that he was forgiven, but even forgiven sin has consequences, and the consequence is that he isn't allowed to use Nana's phone anymore. Of course, I'm sure his mom's purchase history looks the same, and she probably doesn't care, but we try to set a better example than he gets at home, but that's a whole different rant...... At least spending every weekend with us, they get good exposure to a good example.
 

hopmedic

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For many apps, there's integration with a web service that the developer has to pay for (using Azure, etc.). The cost of this service depends on how much server resources were used, which would most likely be proportional to the number of users of the app. So by not buying an app and using it anyways, you are hurting the developer.
Yes. In this case, you are ACTIVELY taking money out of the developer's pocket. You're stealing in TWO ways.
 

Etyrnus

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And that black ops 2 example, you would have to buy two copies if you wanted you and another person to be able to play at the same time on two consoles in the same house. Can't share one disc there.
 

willied

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If you're paying for cloud-based services that go up in cost with more users, then yes, I agree, that's bad for the developer.
 

hopmedic

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If you're paying for cloud-based services that go up in cost with more users, then yes, I agree, that's bad for the developer.

But whether you are or not, it's still no less a crime than stealing a copy of Windows, Photoshop, or any other piece of software. And yes, no matter how you try to justify it, it's still a crime.
 

jswantek

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It IS a hobby, you nit-wit. But it is still MY time, and I deserve to be compensated for it. I am the one who decides what to charge for my apps, not Microsoft, so you are buying from ME, not Microsoft, when you make that purchase in the store. Microsoft is just a selling agent. So when you decide to "share" accounts (steal), it is ME that you are stealing from.

How much I make is irrelevant. In my case, I give my apps away, and use ads to generate revenue. But that is irrelevant, because it is MY choice to do it that way, not yours. Only the developer can legally choose to allow his work to be free of charge. The rest of you who are doing it are doing it in direct violation of the law, and whether you WERE in full knowledge of it or not, you are now. And whether you knew it or not has no relevance, either - ask any of the people who've been found guilty of stealing from the music publishers and have had to pay huge fines. You're no better than the common thug kid in grade school who beat up the little kid and stole his lunch money. You just hide behind a computer to do it. I guess that makes you more of a coward.

As far as five devices in the same family, Microsoft doesn't have the right to give a family rights that only I as the creator of the work can give. Only the creator of the work can assign those rights, unless he enters into an agreement which gives those rights to another entity. I didn't enter into such an agreement. Microsoft can't take my one purchase and give five copies to five different people.

I've never stolen or pirated anything in my life, but your attitude towards the simple question of license sharing makes me want to start.

Could you be so kind as to post a list of the apps you've developed? I'd like to make sure I never purchase them.
 

hopmedic

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I've never stolen or pirated anything in my life, but your attitude towards the simple question of license sharing makes me want to start.

Could you be so kind as to post a list of the apps you've developed? I'd like to make sure I never purchase them.

My attitude isn't toward a question of license sharing. My attitude is toward the blatant entitlement attitude that is being displayed here, and how people don't seem to care that there are laws in place that make what they want to do illegal unless agreed upon and yet they openly admit, and seem to be proud to be doing it anyway. THAT is where my attitude is directed. If agree with that, frankly, you're part of the problem whether you admit to ever having stolen or pirating anything in your life or not.
 

Mr. Brown

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Let's take a look at a real-life case example. I've got a Windows Phone, and so does my wife. We each have our phones tied to our own individual Microsoft accounts, and we each purchase our apps separately for our individual phones. Since my phone is a Windows Phone 8 (my wife hasn't upgraded yet), I can pass my phone to my daughter so that she can play the apps that I've purchased and have pinned to her Kids Zone. So far, I'm satisfied with this setup.

I also have a Surface tablet that my wife and I both use. We each have an individual login tied to our individual Microsoft accounts so that we can check our own email, calendar, and notifications. However, if I were to buy a Microsoft Store app for the tablet on my account, it's not available on her account without re-purchasing, even though it's already installed on the tablet and only one of us can use the tablet at a time. With traditional Windows computers, installing an application on one computer can and usually does allow that application to be used by other people on the same machine, even when logged into other accounts.

Furthermore, I'd like to set up a login on the tablet for my daughter which is not tied to a Microsoft account. This is possible, but I'd like to be able to purchase apps for the tablet on my account and have them be available to my daughter on her (local) account.

My suggestions:


  1. Allow applications that are purchased by the primary (Administrator) account on a device to be used by other accounts on the same device. This should give some flexibility without opening up a loophole that would create rampant application oversharing.
  2. Allow users to group their individual Microsoft accounts into "Family" groups. Then offer a Family price for applications (both W8 and WP8) that will unlock those apps for everyone in the family group (and perhaps a price to upgrade on already bought app to the Family price). I think a Family price that's double the individual app's price would be fair, and I think there may need to be limits on who can be in a family group (off the top of my head: same last name, perhaps a limited number of accounts can join). The upside for Microsoft and App developers is that there's more incentive for everyone in a family to be on the same platform, therefore more apps will be sold.
  3. Alternately, if at least two accounts in the same family group purchase the same app, then it unlocks for the rest of the accounts in the family group.
  4. I agree with Inteller that purchasing a W8 or WP8 app should ideally unlock the same app on the other platform.

I write this post as an avid Windows platform user and promoter, and as a software developer.

You can share apps between different accounts on the same Windows RT tablet. Take a look at my post below. Just go into the Store settings on the second account and modify the Microsoft Account that is used. You can also require it to prompt for password for purchase so you don't have to worry about your kid buying something.

http://forums.windowscentral.com/su...-widows-rt-multiple-accounts-shared-apps.html
 

msdugn

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Could you be so kind as to post a list of the apps you've developed? I'd like to make sure I never purchase them.

Please do. Like many people, I resist purchases from people or firms who provide less-than-stellar support or with a grumpy, demanding or demeaning attitude. So I can add you to my list, please tell me what apps you've made hopmedic.

That said, I gladly throw money at developers who create a useful app that provides value to me and provide stellar support with a focus on their customers. I even gladly spend it twice to put it on my phone and my wife's phone. I even support apps I don't need but LOVE what they've done for the platform (the 627.am app is a good example).
 

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