07-22-2017 08:54 AM
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  1. Drael646464's Avatar
    If it was only apps, that would be kind of positive, in terms of correcting it. It's very early days for UWP, and it seems very likely the platform will grow IMO.

    But I think, personally, handsets is as big, if not a bigger factor. And we don't know if there is any real plan to solve that pickle.
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    06-28-2017 09:59 PM
  2. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    If it was only apps, that would be kind of positive, in terms of correcting it. It's very early days for UWP, and it seems very likely the platform will grow IMO.

    But I think, personally, handsets is as big, if not a bigger factor. And we don't know if there is any real plan to solve that pickle.
    Yeah. They are in a really tough spot. I'm really hoping that the UWP plan really catches fire. I really miss my Windows Phone, and hope that I'll be able to use one again in the near future. Fingers are crossed. :)

    Sent from mTalk
    06-28-2017 10:13 PM
  3. pkcable's Avatar
    But, unfortunately, their grasp on the software front is being overtaken or simply beaten in two key areas: Education and Mobile. If young people are being exposed to Apple and Android throughout their elementary, middle, and high school years, they will have learned how to be productive using those environments. Once in college or in the work force, they will have no need to use Microsoft software unless they go into a specialized field that was built around it. These fields are everywhere now, but new industries in the next 20 years or so might be built using what today's young people are familiar with....iOS and Android. It is a must that they capture widespread youth appeal if they want to remain at the top of the software hill in the future. They need "cool", viral apps and mobile products. Doing things like announcing the Hololens 5 years before normal people can get their hands on it is not going to cut it.
    A very valid point! We shall see how this all plays out over the next couple years!
    06-29-2017 08:33 AM
  4. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    A very valid point! We shall see how this all plays out over the next couple years!
    I really like Windows 10, and really hope that MS overcomes the obstacles it faces. I'd especially like to see a successful push back into mobile. I very much enjoyed my Windows Phones over the years. I guess all we can do is wait.
    06-29-2017 08:40 AM
  5. Drael646464's Avatar
    So it has. That's almost half. Well then you are right, people are leaving in droves.

    Hard to say its all specifically for apps though. Could be that they just want new devices and their aren't any. Or a combination.

    It appears like thing really started dropping off in marketshare, around when MSFT killed nokia. So there must be some connection there between, devices, and userbase too.

    After all there are as many new UWP apps coming to the platform, as there are mobility app makers ditching the platform. I wrote a blog the other day on top games for the platform. Over 90% of them were all UWP. A lot of apps these days are UWP too (like productivity or photo editing apps)

    The ones that are leaving are the ones that came earlier in the piece with Silverlight/xap, and see the platform as being about win10m, versus the ones that are coming in, who see UWP as the future app platform for windows - slightly different use scenarios with the userbase too admittedly: Desktop users don't have much use for snapchat or banking apps.

    Perhaps that's a factor in the leaving as well though. Just hard to know exactly what all the prevailing factors are without some kind of formal survey.
    I just read today, in the positive windows news thread, a survey that shows that it's the 8.1 phone users primarily that are leaving. They speculate that it's either the "hardcore fans" that are already on win10m phones, or that its the effect of having no new handsets.

    But it's an interesting piece of data to add to the now 1.5% userbase.

    Almost all supported Windows Phones are already running Windows 10 Mobile Creators Update

    I'm actually kind of amazed that so many people are still on 8.1 73.9% of windows phone users, lol.
    06-29-2017 09:37 PM
  6. PerfectReign's Avatar
    I'm actually kind of amazed that so many people are still on 8.1 73.9% of windows phone users, lol.
    I was turned on my HTC One M8 yesterday. Ibjad forgotten how primitive and difficult Win 8.1 was compared to 10.
    06-29-2017 10:56 PM
  7. Guytronic's Avatar
    What if there won't be any windows mobile devices?
    Not much to say frankly.
    If Microsoft had any plans for a revival it would have happened long ago.
    Analyze all day long if you will.

    Microsoft is out of the mobile game which is beneficial for the company and it's shareholders.
    Apologies to fans of the mobile OS this is about spending Microsoft money in the right places.
    06-30-2017 12:56 AM
  8. libra89's Avatar
    I just read today, in the positive windows news thread, a survey that shows that it's the 8.1 phone users primarily that are leaving. They speculate that it's either the "hardcore fans" that are already on win10m phones, or that its the effect of having no new handsets.

    But it's an interesting piece of data to add to the now 1.5% userbase.

    Almost all supported Windows Phones are already running Windows 10 Mobile Creators Update

    I'm actually kind of amazed that so many people are still on 8.1 73.9% of windows phone users, lol.
    Yep, my dad has nothing to upgrade to, and besides, he's fine with 8.1. Windows 10 Mobile is getting better but I don't feel comfortable with subjecting him to app crashes for the few ones that he uses, which includes HERE (which doesn't exist there). Why fix what isn't broken?
    Guytronic, Elky64 and Laura Knotek like this.
    06-30-2017 08:00 AM
  9. BajanSaint69's Avatar
    I suspect what they are working on is a device that can run x86 software and can also make calls. From a coding perspective this is a bit like shoving a camel through the eye of a needle. Existing handsets most likely lack the power to pull this off, hence the pruning of the handsets as we go forward. They no longer matter. The mobile operating system is irrelevant.

    But still we have statements from the company and leaks of things like the C-shell that indicate that they continue to develop for mobile. They have no choice because this is where the growth is going to be. The Surface devices have succeeded because they play to MS strengths, they run real software, not apps. If you want apps you can go to Apple or Android they have that sphere locked down. If you want to do real work you buy a Surface. When the Surface phone emerges, whatever the form factor, it will allow people to do real work which will make the app gap irrelevant.

    If you look at the vision laid out by Nadella, this is clearly where they want to go. I suspect it is proving harder than they thought it would be.
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    06-30-2017 08:13 AM
  10. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    WhatsApp is sunsetting this week. Lots of average people use that too. I would say that, based on what is selling in the smartphone market, average mobile users overwhelmingly like and use iOS and Android.

    This was about the apps for windows phone 7.8 and 8


    If W10M (if this is what you meant by win10) wasn't a bad fit, we wouldn't have users leaving it in droves. And it's not just lack of marketing, because if it was, existing users wouldn't be leaving
    I believe the reality is more of that people aren't buying new windows mobile devices since they have simply disappeared from the majority of the countries in the world, especially where the OS used to be popular like Brazil and some African and European countries

    At the same time, a lot of users had bought the cheaper 520/525 lumia series and when they wanted a better phone, they went for the better phone which was cheaper for the same specs - for a good number of people, price is the biggest factor and hence would be swayed by the cheaper nature of android phones

    And finally marketing also plays a part since lack of marketing means low to zero levels of awareness by the average consumer



    There have been many threads over the years asking for users to request apps. Many of us have indeed done that, but the companies aren't interested. I requested apps from my bank and pharmacy for years, to no avail.
    But do we have numbers of how many requested for a certain app? Like app x was requested by 2000 people but nothing was done? Or app Y was requested by 50000 and they took no interest?

    An individual making the same request 20 times doesn't carry the same weight as the request being made by 20 people
    06-30-2017 12:23 PM
  11. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    One thing to remember about Microsoft, is they do SO much more than just phones, in fact phones are VERY small potatoes to them, PC software and such is their bread and butter!
    That is very true but their unified vision of one OS across all form factors makes it quite apparent that mobile has to be part of the story - or you will have an incomplete story with no proper flow

    And why can't we have bread with butter and jam too?



    Yeah but they know that is only for so long. I currently pay about $150k per year to MS for desktop support and probably $400k more for server and developer support. However that revenue will eventually morph into something with IoT.
    That's quite a lot of money - I'm guessing there must be hundreds of computers where you work

    Good thing is MS is working quite a lot in the enterprise sector with better innovation and increased number of services - or do you feel different?


    But, unfortunately, their grasp on the software front is being overtaken or simply beaten in two key areas: Education and Mobile. If young people are being exposed to Apple and Android throughout their elementary, middle, and high school years, they will have learned how to be productive using those environments. Once in college or in the work force, they will have no need to use Microsoft software unless they go into a specialized field that was built around it. These fields are everywhere now, but new industries in the next 20 years or so might be built using what today's young people are familiar with....iOS and Android. It is a must that they capture widespread youth appeal if they want to remain at the top of the software hill in the future. They need "cool", viral apps and mobile products. Doing things like announcing the Hololens 5 years before normal people can get their hands on it is not going to cut it.

    I have to disagree here since this appears like a one sided viewpoint - MS isn't losing out in education at all - it would only seem that way since the education market in USA is tough for MS while just about every other country in the world uses MS products or the more analogue book and paper. Certainly in majority of colleges around the world windows laptops are the norm and apple is the exception. Chrome books aren't even a thing anywhere outside USA

    I cannot see how ios or android will enter the productive space with their apps - it just can't be done - this week alone I was working with 240 excel files with each file having 1440 columns and 255 rows - there was simply no way to work with all those files using a touch interface - a keyboard and mouse were a complete necessity

    Online learning sites like edx depend on the browser and a tablet or phone browser just can't handle it - I've tried it myself

    Cool viral apps aren't the solution for capturing the attention of the youth


    It's pretty hard to have a marketshare without substaintive new handsets. Certainly I am not saying some people haven't left. Certainly those who like new and shiny, will have probably moved on. But I think the number of people actually still using windows phones is frequently underestimated.
    i agree with you on this one.
    Scienceguy Labs likes this.
    06-30-2017 12:41 PM
  12. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    After all there are as many new UWP apps coming to the platform, as there are mobility app makers ditching the platform. I wrote a blog the other day on top games for the platform. Over 90% of them were all UWP. A lot of apps these days are UWP too (like productivity or photo editing apps)
    The ones that are leaving are the ones that came earlier in the piece with Silverlight/xap, and see the platform as being about win10m, versus the ones that are coming in, who see UWP as the future app platform for windows - slightly different use scenarios with the userbase too admittedly: Desktop users don't have much use for snapchat or banking apps.
    Nice research - you can share the blog and findings?

    I think desktop users would like some apps that have been predominantly mobile - nowadays I like using Instagram in my surface 3 since the bigger screen helps a lot - I also use WhatsApp desktop and facebook on the desktop browser - there's barely anything that I really do exclusively on the phone - so if WhatsApp came to desktop as an actual app, I would use it immediately
    Scienceguy Labs likes this.
    06-30-2017 12:46 PM
  13. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    I think we're all just beating a dead horse here. Regardless of how we feel about apps, without them, Windows Mobile simply cannot go forward. I know there's a push for UWP apps, but that still requires a development team to spend time and money on an app for an ecosystem that, so far, hasn't proven to be worth the effort.
    Just visit the store on a W10M device and search for any noteworthy apps that are essential on iOS or Android. Most likely, it won't be found, and if it is, it's usually very poor in function and support. Facebook, Facebook Messenger, Instagram, Google Apps, Cortana, etc, etc are good examples of this.

    Are people leaving in droves or are there just no devices available?? Well, it could be argued that it's always been difficult to get one. Even in the heyday of the early 2010s carriers are reluctant to offer them, often steered you towards iOS or Android, or only offered a select few WPs to choose from. AT&T was the most supportive, but even they dropped the ball. So, people might not be leaving in droves, but were they ever really lining up in droves? At it's most popular, I only saw one other WP in the wild in a sea of iOS and Android.

    The fact that people have to request apps to be made says it all. Whether it be one person requesting the same app over and over or a petition with a few thousand names on it, like the Band 3 petition that I signed, the fact that we are begging for apps is very telling. I can see petitioning for an obscure app, but we're begging for mainstream apps here. It's just....a dead horse. ๐Ÿ˜Š
    06-30-2017 12:54 PM
  14. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    My comment might have been one sided, I agree. I'm just going by what I see in my neck of the woods.

    As far as cool as viral apps capturing the attention of the youth.... This is why WM is in the predicament they are in. MS was late to the app game.

    I'm not arguing with you, Chintan. I appreciate your posts. ๐Ÿ˜Š
    06-30-2017 12:57 PM
  15. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    but were they ever really lining up in droves?
    Valid point


    The fact that people have to request apps to be made says it all. Whether it be one person requesting the same app over and over or a petition with a few thousand names on it, like the Band 3 petition that I signed, the fact that we are begging for apps is very telling. I can see petitioning for an obscure app, but we're begging for mainstream apps here
    This is spot on and I didn't think of it this way before - I have to hand it to you for making this point


    I'm just going by what I see in my neck of the woods.
    And I keep sharing experiences from my side of the world - so in essence, none of us have the complete picture by our individual selves - only Microsoft has the most complete picture of how things went wrong - and they are the ones in the best position to act on their prior shortcomings and make headway to a new future


    I'm not arguing with you, Chintan. I appreciate your posts.
    And I appreciate yours as well :-)
    06-30-2017 01:31 PM
  16. Scienceguy Labs's Avatar
    Good points can be made for and against. I just happen to be on the disgruntled side at the moment. Ha ha

    I do think you have a great point regarding perspective. It's very true that MS has loads of data that they're sifting through that we just don't get to see. Who knows what they have planned??? I just want them to succeed and get to the level that their competition is at as quickly as they can. It's frustrating, because I'm a fan, but was forced into Android largely due to the decisions of MS. Hopefully, things get better.
    06-30-2017 01:41 PM
  17. Jozef jurcisin's Avatar
    This test is to long!!!
    By the end of test nobody will have any interest anymore!
    07-01-2017 12:48 PM
  18. Chintan Gohel's Avatar
    This test is to long!!!
    By the end of test nobody will have any interest anymore!
    Which test are you referring to?
    07-01-2017 11:39 PM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    Which test are you referring to?
    Windows mobile and trying to find something that will sell, I am guessing.

    Sent from mTalk on my SP4
    libra89 likes this.
    07-02-2017 07:55 AM
  20. twint7787's Avatar
    Didn't read many posts.

    I've also thought they won't come back into mobile. I think that they will concentrate on AR.

    They can't compete in mobile. Mobile is lost. That main phone type device will always be Android or iOS for most people. If the surface "phone" does come out it will be positioned as a notebook that can make calls. But the thing is that MS will just tell the public that Windows can make calls once they release Windows on ARM. That way when they release this device or makes calls because Windows does that. That will be their marketing speak.

    But as far as being that main device in your pocket... No, I really don't see that happening. They are missing so many things to make that device great. Too many compromises for an average user and thus adoption will never take off, critical user mass will never happen, and developers won't make the apps that ppl need.
    libra89, TgeekB and Laura Knotek like this.
    07-02-2017 06:00 PM
  21. ak_r7's Avatar
    Didn't read many posts.

    I've also thought they won't come back into mobile. I think that they will concentrate on AR.

    They can't compete in mobile. Mobile is lost. That main phone type device will always be Android or iOS for most people. If the surface "phone" does come out it will be positioned as a notebook that can make calls. But the thing is that MS will just tell the public that Windows can make calls once they release Windows on ARM. That way when they release this device or makes calls because Windows does that. That will be their marketing speak.

    But as far as being that main device in your pocket... No, I really don't see that happening. They are missing so many things to make that device great. Too many compromises for an average user and thus adoption will never take off, critical user mass will never happen, and developers won't make the apps that ppl need.
    Mobile devices are going to be next big thing. Devices are shrinking every day.
    MS knows it cannot afford to ignore mobile platform if it wants to be a major player.
    Catering ONLY a small segment of Ent. customers just won't cut it (read surface phone)
    People loved WP because of many reasons- butter smooth OS, secure, excellent HW and camera, very good performance even on budget models etc etc.. The list could go on & on.

    I believe MS should focus on below points if they want to be successful in mobile space.

    1. Apps, apps and more apps
    2. Stability of platform/OS
    3. Strict quality control on apps
    4. Have a clear cut vision and future road map for mobile.
    5. HURRY the hell up, the world is not going to wait for decades for the next " big thing" from MS.
    6. Create jaw dropping hardware (like Nokia used to do)
    7. Improve support structure to gain back the lost trust of users.
    8. More closer integration with windows desktop OS.
    9. Revamp the mobile team, hire top talents from across the industry.
    10. Promote the culture of using windows phone internally within the company.
    11. Spend some good money on marketing of WP.

    It sure will take considerable amount of time to get all this done but MS needs to start at least!!!
    Or else, within 10-12 months, we could witness the death of a mobile platform which " could have been the greatest and BEST OS ever".
    I could , gladly , any day dump my OP3 and IP6 if apps start coming on WP. I have loved WP since the day i got my 1st one- Lumia 920.. ( still hold a 640XL- use only as a wifi device for browsing, emails etc.)
    07-03-2017 12:26 AM
  22. Ray Picone's Avatar
    if there was not a windows mobile device like a Windows phone, it would be just a matter of time before the desktop or laptop market would be affected. Android will soon have Chromebooks that will run apps. It would not take much to have Chromebooks take the place of Windows 10 laptops.
    07-05-2017 09:23 PM
  23. Drael646464's Avatar
    Mobile devices are going to be next big thing. Devices are shrinking every day.
    MS knows it cannot afford to ignore mobile platform if it wants to be a major player.
    Catering ONLY a small segment of Ent. customers just won't cut it (read surface phone)
    People loved WP because of many reasons- butter smooth OS, secure, excellent HW and camera, very good performance even on budget models etc etc.. The list could go on & on.

    I believe MS should focus on below points if they want to be successful in mobile space.



    1. Apps, apps and more apps
    2. Stability of platform/OS
    3. Strict quality control on apps
    4. Have a clear cut vision and future road map for mobile.
    5. HURRY the hell up, the world is not going to wait for decades for the next " big thing" from MS.
    6. Create jaw dropping hardware (like Nokia used to do)
    7. Improve support structure to gain back the lost trust of users.
    8. More closer integration with windows desktop OS.
    9. Revamp the mobile team, hire top talents from across the industry.
    10. Promote the culture of using windows phone internally within the company.
    11. Spend some good money on marketing of WP.

    It sure will take considerable amount of time to get all this done but MS needs to start at least!!!
    Or else, within 10-12 months, we could witness the death of a mobile platform which " could have been the greatest and BEST OS ever".
    I could , gladly , any day dump my OP3 and IP6 if apps start coming on WP. I have loved WP since the day i got my 1st one- Lumia 920.. ( still hold a 640XL- use only as a wifi device for browsing, emails etc.)
    I reckon static devices will be the next big thing after that. We have AR/VR and AI coming, and none of those things run well on tiny devices. If you want AI/AR/VR with low latency and with high power, you'll want it running on a powerful device, locally.

    If you want to have a full on conversation with a truly intelligent something connected to a local IoT, the cloud isn't going to cut it, and a mobile device isn't going to cut it - plus access to a server with that many cores would be either costly or limited. If you want an AR or VR experience that approaches real life fidelity, a mobile phone is not going to cut it.

    It also almost doesn't matter how fast internet connections get either. The net is only as fast as its slowest point, and even if it is fast, there's all the nodes each way - the distance. Fibre for example, only works at its fastest when wired - wifi isn't fast enough to take full advantage. And while that works okay for streaming, its not as effective for two way communication where latency is important.

    If your accessing a server for a speech conversation for example, even with high speed access, there's going to be a delay in each direction. Even the highest speed fibre isn't fast enough for VR. And 5G isn't fast enough for no latency either.

    Right now, things are getting smaller. But as with every other time processing power has gotten better, we find a new use for it.

    I think MS senses this with their edge cloud thingo - they are designing cloud based IoT that can be localized for lower latency.
    07-05-2017 09:38 PM
  24. M_A_Adams's Avatar
    I don't know, confidence is definitely NOT high. I don't believe that ANY phone will fit into the cloud first mantra from Nadella. I guess the only hope for that would be some sort of 10S device, where there is little on the device and everything would require connections and cloud access. I can't see that as workable with most of today's data plans and prices. I have a gut feeling that Nadella's vision of the future really doesn't include mobile. Hope I'm wrong, but all indications seem to point that way.
    07-07-2017 12:26 PM
  25. Drael646464's Avatar
    I am now certain that the Andromeda device is in the works. looks like an enterprise focused device with a detachable dual screen clamshell, focused on multi-tasking. It's not quite a westworld tablet, or flexible screen (which are awhile off) and I don't think it'll run windows on arm. But it does appear to be in development, and it will be interesting.

    It's supposedly running a sibling/branch of win10m. I don't think its a reboot either. So that still leaves us the question of will we see regular phones. HP? probably. The others? Wait and see. Doubtless there will need to be some kind of glass slabs too. Sure msft has some kind of plan, effective or not.
    Chintan Gohel likes this.
    07-08-2017 02:51 AM
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